Customer empathy in healthtech | Alex Svitnev (VP of customer success at Janus Health)
Your customers are only gonna be as happy as not only as well as your product works, but as well as they're taken care of. Right? And I think that's where customer success, it's really an enhancer. Right? Because I feel like a lot of people get so focused on, like, let's get these customers live and get them up.
Alex:And, like, I've seen so many examples of even, like, bigger software companies. Right? Or, like, even, like, service companies where they're you know, it's kinda like, hey. They were great right up until they got everything live. And then after that, everything fell off.
Alex:Right? And I can't like, this stuff's falling apart. I can't maintain anything. And so I think to me, that's where, like, I kinda take that personally. Right?
Alex:I feel like you should really have, like, that dedicated and, like, passionate approach for your customers, like, all the way through. Right? Like, at the beginning, identify the right, like, make sure that the problems that they're experiencing are aligned well to your product. Right? And then make sure that your products are solving the right issues for them.
Alex:And then afterwards, make sure that you're, like, listening to them. Right? Because to the living and breathing point, customer success, I think, can be, like, the conduit into product of like, hey. Have these customers that have been live for a year. Here are the additional things they would like to see.
Alex:Right? We're seeing this trend across all of our customers. So I I really do feel like it's important to, you know, like, really keep that ear to the ground. And to your point, it is like it's like the bread on the sandwich.
Zain:Welcome to the Digital Thoughts podcast brought to you by Strata PT. My name is Zain Sayed, and I am a pharmacist turned product manager. I have almost 10 years of clinical experience in oncology ranging from inpatient all the way to outpatient. My goal with this podcast is to bring people from all sides of the conversation together so that we can learn from each other and build a better health care system. In this podcast, we discuss everything digital health from the people to the products.
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Zain:Set up a call today by going to www.alphasophia.com backslash zane. Now on to the episode. Today, we have an awesome guest. Alex Sweetnav is the vice president of customer success, Janus Health. In this episode, we talk about why customer success is crucial, why product managers need to spend time with their customers, market penetration strategies, and the importance of collaboration and sharing knowledge.
Zain:This is a great episode. I hope you guys enjoyed it as much as I did. Hey, Alex. How are you doing?
Alex:Good. Good thing. How are you doing?
Zain:I'm doing great. So I'm really excited to talk to Alex today. We have, we have, I think, some interesting topics to go through. But before we get started, do you mind giving us a little background about yourself?
Alex:Sure thing. Yeah. So, my background's been primarily in health care. Most of my career, got a got a start in it actually working at a hospital in food service and kinda work my way up at a health system here in Saint Louis before getting the bug to go on the tech side and switching over. So I went to go work for a startup for a little bit, did that.
Alex:That was a great experience. And then took a side step out of health care to go work for Slalom, work on the tech side, held also helped us start a Saint Louis health care practice with some awesome people. So that was really fun to kinda go through and then, spend some time at Olive, which could be good or bad depending how you look at it now. But, I was actually running the product theme for the innovation lab over there for a little bit and then spent about a year running the revenue cycle product for ZOLL, primarily in the EMS space. And then right now, I'm in Janice.
Alex:I came over to help us scale up our product team, and then I just switched over to Beyond Customer Success. And I'm kinda scaling up
Zain:our support work and all that kind of good stuff. So Yeah. That's that's amazing. I mean, you have quite a I mean, it's a varied experience. I mean, it's it's all kind of revolving on health care, but it seems like you kind of have seen different aspects of it, you know, from revenue cycle to product to food service.
Zain:I mean, that's a very important thing as well. But, right, so what kinda got you into health care?
Alex:Yeah. So it was actually because of my mom. So, I saw my mom early on. We moved over to the US from Eastern Europe. I saw her.
Alex:She was an executive, you know, back back home. Saw her start from scratch coming over here as a pharmacy tech. She's a pharmacist. And so, like, just the the passion that she had for it. Right?
Alex:Like, she just kept I mean, it took her, like, 10 years to get her license over here. She had to go back through, like, do English, do all those things. But just the passion she had for it, like, really ignited that in me. And so originally, when I was when I started college, I actually wanted to be a pharmacist, then I got into, like, year 2 of pharmacy school and I was like, man, I don't know I don't know how much more organic chem I can take. So, you know, but I at that point, I was already working for a health system.
Alex:Right? I really wanted to make sure that I stayed in health care, and so I really wanted to connect with people. And so I kinda switched to the management side and then went and got my you know, later got my MBA and my master's in IT leadership too.
Zain:Yeah. That's awesome. I mean, your mom sounds like an amazing lady. Not no, no, no bias here. I mean, pharmacists are awesome, but no, I mean Yeah.
Alex:Yeah. They are.
Zain:I think that, yeah, no, I can definitely empathize with that. I mean, just, you know, being innovative myself, watching my dad actually was a pharmacist as well. And then when we came here, he didn't end up getting his license. Now he works in it. Completely separate.
Zain:But he always says that he wishes he went back and kind of went through because they also told him that he need to go back to school. At that time, it just wasn't financially viable for him at the time. So, I can definitely empathize with that. It's, it's a struggle, but it's it's really amazing to see people with that kind of passion that will not stop. You know, and I think we even me, you know, I think we get really complacent.
Zain:And if the the the smallest thing that happens, we kind of just take a right turn and whatever. We'll do that later. But to see, like, you know, people like your mom that are really just passionate and you can tell and that's those are the kind of people we need in health care, honestly, is They're people that really want to be there and they really want to be there for the right reason. So I commend your mother. I know it's I know what she went through.
Zain:I know it's hard. So, I mean, like I said, she's she sounds like an amazing lady. And but, so the reason why I wanted to talk to you was, you know, you've had you had some pretty amazing experiences kind of leading product teams, and now you're in customer success. And we can kind of talk a little bit about how product and customer success kind of go hand in hand. But, as you are a product leader, like what Let me back up a little bit.
Zain:There's a lot of health tech companies out right now, right? There's a lot of technology coming into the fold. And I think that there is some there's like a fundamental lack of not product, but I think there's like I think product is a lot bigger than just like the app. And just I think there's a lot more to product. So let's go.
Zain:Let's let's back up a little bit. Like, what is a what is product and what does a product team do?
Alex:Yeah. For sure. No. So I mean so to me, if you're doing it the right way. Right?
Alex:Like, so product should be, like, your people that are real like, they really understand your market. They understand your customers. They're talking to your customers. They understand what their biggest pain points are, and then they're able to translate those pain points into tangible things that can solve problems for them and, you know, be able to work with engineering teams to be able to drive a road map and do all those things. Right?
Alex:And those are more like, you know, I guess tangible things. But really, I think the what makes a great product person is just having really solid empathy and strategic thinking. Right? Being able to put yourself in the shoes of the customer and not only yourself designing the product, right, but actually talking to the people that are experiencing the pain every single day. Right?
Alex:So in health care, it's super important. It doesn't matter if you're doing rep cycle, clinical, whatever it is. Go talk to those people. They're living in the stuff every day. Right?
Alex:Make sure you're solving the right challenge for them.
Zain:Yeah. And it's it's and maybe maybe you had a different experience, but it seems like especially not it's not just a health care problem, but I'm just in health care. It seems like it's it's really daunting. It's really crazy to me that there's all these health tech products that are being created without like and this is not meant to sound bad. I'm not trying to paint anyone in bed, but like without the basic research, like, you know, actually talking to clinicians, I think there's a lot of people that come into this space with a passion because they want to help.
Zain:Everyone has been touched with something, unfortunately or fortunately, in the health care system. Right. Either. And you talk to a lot of these product, a lot of these companies and their their stories are really genuinely good, right? They either experience something, their family member experienced something, and they wanted they want to solve that problem.
Zain:So they use themselves as that. They're empathizing with themselves. But when they come out, they realize that there's more to it than what they experienced. And have you experienced have you have you kind of seen that in the health tech space too? Is this there's a 100%.
Zain:Yeah.
Alex:Yeah. And it's not and, like, then to your point, it's not just a health tech problem too. Right? Like, so, you know, at Swallom, we used to have a little group of us that would go and, like, consult, like, pro bono for companies that were startups in St. Louis.
Alex:And, like, there are a lot of people that, like, got started. They actually had, like, funding and everything, and they were, like, operating off assumptions. Right? They're like, no. This is, like, our value prop, and this is what we're doing.
Alex:But they didn't really stop to think if it resonated with, like, their full, like, customer base. Right? Or maybe they sampled a couple, like, small customers, and they kinda got, like, the validation, and then they're like, yep. Let's go with that. Really, it's important for you to kinda get different perspectives, right, to make sure, especially, like, you know, if it's health care, you know, like, go talk to, you know, the physician side.
Alex:Go talk to the hospital side. Go talk to hospital systems that are different sizes. I know it's not it sound I'm making it sound easier than it actually is because it's very hard to get in to have those meetings unless you know someone. Right? But, I mean, I think that validation and research is is very important because it's not about validating your value prop.
Alex:It's also invalidating invalidating it as quickly as possible. Right? So you wanna make sure that you're solving the right problem for them.
Zain:Yeah. 100%. I think there's the other the other thing with this is I mean, there's a lot of good points you made there. Another thing with this is maybe the problem that you're trying to solve is not solvable right now because there's so many things ahead of you. Like, you know, there's, you know, you are the 10th thing in line.
Zain:You're trying to solve the 10th thing. But if 1 through 9 are broken, your product will not succeed. And I think that that comes with kind of what you mentioned, going and looking through the process, seeing where everything is. You know, really, I think empathy is a word that gets thrown around in product, UI, UX, all these, you know, product role type things. But I think people really don't understand what it means.
Zain:Like empathizing really means like putting yourself in the trenches with those people and really understanding. Because if somebody asked me what my job was, right, they'd be like, hey, what are you doing? I do. Yeah. I'll tell them like my general overarching thing, but I'm not gonna remember every little
Alex:right
Zain:issue that I have. The only way you're going to find that is by sitting next to somebody and, like, watching them and being, like, you know, and I think that part of it, I think going back to the, you know, to your mom, you took her 10 years to get to it. I think that you need that kind of drive to kind of you have to be obsessed with the problem to the sense that you wanna Right. Really fix it and be in it all the time. 100%.
Zain:Yeah. And then
Alex:then you have to make sure you're also not blind you know, you're not blinding the solution with your own bias. Right? Like, that's why it's important. You're making sure you're talking to people. You're really getting that, you know, like, that direct feedback.
Alex:Because, I mean, I've seen, you know, like, when I've had to work in the ED as a registrar, right, in other areas, right, like, that really gives you perspective. And I think even back when I worked for, you know, a health system in Saint Louis, we would have, you know, like, vendors come on-site, just to go like, have their engineers shadow our registration staff in the ED. And and that would go a long way. Right? Because they'll be asking questions on, like, why don't you guys just add you know, get the insurance information right up front right when they're checking in so you're saving them the hassle.
Alex:Right? And then, like, like, those are the things that people don't fully understand because if they're in the tech space primarily, right, they don't have all the nuances. But just being there and having that context, even if it's for a day, I mean, it would really still really stick with you and it'll help shape the, you know, the right vision for the product and the problem you're trying to solve.
Zain:Yeah. And I do wanna go back into I mean, yeah. I mean, we're we are oversimplifying it a little bit saying that, hey. Just go find somebody and talk to them. Right.
Alex:But It's definitely not easy.
Zain:Yeah. It's not easy, but I think it's easier than people think it is. I think that, you know, you would be surprised that if you call and are genuinely trying to build or solve something, and you call some physicians or whoever, a hospital or something and be like, Hey, can I just shadow you guys for a day or 2 or a week? Or I know people that have shadowed clinics for a year, like before they even built the product, just one solid year, got there when they opened, closed when they closed. And there's a lot of people I think the medical community is open to it.
Zain:And the other thing is, if they're not open to it, we can't complain. This is flip side of the coin. I think if you're a medical professional, you need to also be open to people coming in and bringing them in to your to your world so they can actually help you solve the problem.
Alex:100%. Yeah. Because I mean, at the end of the day, like health care, like, you know, I feel bad bad because it feels like everybody kinda gangs up on health care and goes, hey. You know, it's, you know, it's so broken. People don't really care.
Alex:They're they're apathetic, all those things. Right? But I mean, I maybe some of that's true, but I mean, it's with that attitude, we're never gonna fix it. Right? Like, we need to be, like, open minded.
Alex:We need to do what we can to make things better. And that starts with just having conversations with people. Right? And so to your point, like, if you're trying to solve the 9th problem down the line, like, get to the actual root cause of the problem. Right?
Alex:Like, in the past, I've always had, like, my product teams do, you know, like, 5 whys or even deeper. Right? Get to the actual, like, true issue that they're experiencing, not all the Band Aids that they have layered on because, like, typically, people are just trying to do the best that they can with what they have. So, you know, let's help set them up for success.
Zain:So what was the you said the 5 whys? Do you wanna go into what that is?
Alex:Yeah. So, like, typically and and this was actually something I picked up at Swalom from some from some people, and then I took it over when I was, you know, like, at Olive and all these other places. Basically, what you're supposed to do, and I had a buddy that taught me this, who, like, would just, like, drill it in. And so, basically, it's you know, don't just go like, for instance, say, you know, a registration process is broken. You know?
Alex:Right? That's like like, why is it broken? You can't just say, well, because we never get insurance cards. But it's like, why are you not getting insurance cards? Is it because you're not giving patients the proper heads up?
Alex:Right? You're not communicating. You're in an ED setting. Right? It's a level 1 trauma.
Alex:Like like, what's basically, you know, like, what did you basically drill down until you're finding the real like, the true root cause of you know, maybe it's just because these are we're only not getting those cards on emergent cases because they're coming in via ambulance, and they have no time to get that information. Right? So, like, then, like, okay. That's the problem. That's what we're dealing with.
Alex:Now how do we solve that? Do we need to go find another way to find that insurance coverage for them or whatever we need to do. Right?
Zain:Yeah. No. That's that's I mean, yeah. So no. I 100% agree.
Zain:I think, like, that's one thing. I think and and that's actually a skill too. Right? Like, I think that
Alex:That is.
Zain:I think I think sometimes we like, oh, why don't you just get to the root cause? I think people that really can get to the root cause are ones that are much better at I mean, honestly, because it's not a skill that's taught to you. I mean, we talk about root cause analysis all the time in schools and things like that, but you do like one, right? And it's all like scripted for you. But when you get into the real world and you're really trying to do it because sometimes you have to ask some really tough questions to some people, and it's just some and some peep and sometimes that's why you can't get to the root cause because you're just some people are just afraid to ask it, or they just don't have the opportunity to ask that person what happened.
Alex:Right. Exactly. Yeah. I mean or honestly, you know, not, like, you know I I guess, I don't know. Like, I'm trying to put this delicately, but I mean, agreed gets in the way, I think, sometimes too.
Alex:Right? Because, like, if somebody is like, hey, I have this problem, and you're like, if I do this, will that solve it for you? And that's just a Band Aid fix, and it's the easiest fix. Right? But you're like, hey, I can get paid for doing this.
Alex:I can build a product that does that. But you're, at the end of the day, just building a band aid. You're not truly solving the issue. Right? So that's where you're gonna, like, have problems with product market fit and everything else because you're basically just trying to plaster over something instead of actually trying to fix, like, the true fund like, the foundation that's broken.
Zain:Yeah. So so you you didn't start off as in product. Right? I mean, right now you're in customer success. Before that, you were in consulting.
Zain:So what about product? What what about product, like, kinda brought you like, what what about product do you love? Like, that kinda brought you into product?
Alex:Yeah. So, I mean, candidly so whenever I was on when I started at Olive, I was a solution architect. I was managing, like, you know, just one of our customers. I was concerned about the product portfolio we had at the time. And so I just started off with, like, making intros to, like, some vendors and to a clearing house, right, and just trying to help, like, bolster our product offering.
Alex:And I was doing that selfishly for my own customer. Right? But I I think I I started talking to people and, like like, Rohan, who was our chief product officer at Olive at the time, was actually the one that, like, really kinda tapped me on the shoulder and was like, hey, man. I don't think you're in the right area. I really think you should be in product, because you have a a knack for looking at, you know, like, solving the, like, the true, like, root cause of the problem.
Alex:You're, like, you're you're analytical. You're looking at things strategically. You're not just going, how can I deliver this from point a to point b? You're actually going, like, what is the customer problem, we're solving solving the problem, we're solving it the right way by architecting the right application, right, like, the right solution, all of that stuff. And I I used to love just creating, you know, like, architectural diagrams and all of those things.
Alex:And so, like, I would just, like, put that stuff out because I'll just nerd out on it because I liked it. Right? Not not fully understanding that that's actually really helpful for designing and validating if, you know, your product works on paper before you actually put hands to keyboard and make you know, put an investment into it because, you know, the, like, the the more effort you put into it, the harder it is to pivot. So
Zain:Yeah. No. That's that's awesome. So then yeah. I mean, I I think that's the thing about product that I really like too.
Zain:It's just it's the job is so varied, which is not for everyone. I mean, I think that's the one thing is like, I think product is kind of like that sexy role right now that, you know, everyone's trying to get. But I think when people get into it, it's not always what they expect. And also every company, I mean, you've had a couple of different product roles, right in leadership, but the product role is different from company to company. Right?
Zain:And that can be a little frustrating for somebody coming in, you know, and I think that, but yeah, I mean, I really do like the product world. I mean, for you, what is the perfect, like, product role? Like, I mean, you know, you've kind of been director of product, in your previous roles as well. Like what when you're when you're setting a product team, like, what are you what is what are the responsibilities of the product team?
Alex:Yeah. So yeah. So I mean, for me, I don't I don't think the titles necessarily matter. I think it is a balancing act between making sure that you are communicating to the engineers, keeping your scrums or your, you know, sprints running appropriately, like, you have good throughput. But not only that, like, not not just focusing on that, but also making sure that you're building the right things.
Alex:Right? Because you could be going fast and optimally, but, like, in the completely wrong direction. Right? So it's it's a balancing act between, like, the people management part and, like, the engineering communication and writing good user stories and doing all of those things. Right?
Alex:And actually understanding your market and, like, understanding your customer, being there with them, talking to them, making sure that you, like, clearly understand their problem, and you can translate that into, you know, product spec documents and, you know, problem statements and value props and everything else. Right? I can I feel like I'm just doing product jargon at this point? But, you know, I can like, at the end of the day, you know, all of these documents that you generate to showcase, like, what your product is, what it's doing really come stems from getting like, I'm just being there and understanding your customers and their pain points.
Zain:So, what would I mean, in your philosophy, like, how much time should a product person spend with the customer?
Alex:So, I mean, to me, I I think it should be, like, no less than, like, 25% just because you need to make sure that you're, like, actively talking. It doesn't matter. And it doesn't have to be a formal meetings, whether it's, you know, you're just sitting in on another session. Right? I I know that's wishful thinking because the the challenging part with product, right, is that you get so busy with everything else that's going on.
Alex:But I mean, I think to me, you know, if you can spend about a quarter of your time or more with customers just to validate, I think it's super beneficial. The the place I learned is the best, and it's kinda funny because, like, Swalom has been using this as, like, a case study. But so I was on I was a solution owner on the Fluid Genius, product for Swalom. And, like, the thing that worked really well for us is we set up a cadence where we had, like, UX review, design and review, a couple sprints ahead of product build. So what we were able to do is we could actually validate, like, hey.
Alex:This is the problem we signed up to to solve for you guys. Here are the mocks. Does that work for you? Let's have you run through the mocks. Let's do a look back session.
Alex:Right? If all of that was, you know, validated and right, yep, we're good to go. We could either pivot it, you know, either if it was good, we're good to go. We can go build it, or we could pivot at that point because we've only done Figma mock ups. Right?
Alex:So it's a lot less, you know, a lot less risk there. And then so what we're able to do is then, like, then 2 sprints later, whenever you're doing your true demo, you're like, hey. Remember when we showed you this 2 weeks ago, we agreed that this was the problem we're trying to solve. Here's that. Here's how it's actually working right now.
Alex:And the problem I think a lot of companies have is that they tend to, like, think that they're the experts and just go in, like, in a dark corner and go, like, we're gonna build this perfect thing. And then they show it to the world. And then, like, you know, hospital system A is like, well, no, I need this thing to go with it. Hospital system B is like, no, I need this thing to go with it. So then they start getting super reactive, right, and just, like, throwing in features because they're like, no, we have to do these things, right, when all of that is just a it's a reactionary mentality, right?
Alex:Like, if you just dedicated that time to spend with your customers, give them a voice, spend time with them every sprint, I think it goes a long way just to make sure that you're actually, like, truly solving the right challenges.
Zain:Yeah. No. I love that. And I think not enough product people, including myself, talk to the customers enough because like you said, if you don't talk to the customer that's paying you Right. And you are not building them what they want, unless you have a signed contract already, like whatever.
Zain:Right. You know, they're paid you already, which would be pretty sleazy for you to do that way, but and not give them what they want. Yeah. But it's it's yeah. I mean, I agree with you.
Zain:I mean, 25% would be awesome. Right? I think I mean, I've heard people say, like, you know, you should be talking to customers on a weekly basis. Like, you know, like you said, there's a cadence that's set up. There's cadence that's set up.
Zain:And it's just like, okay, this time from this time to this time on a Wednesday or Thursday or Friday, whatever it is, you know, sales and whoever is just putting customers on the product teams like calendar, like you're just talking to them because the more information you have, I think product is one of those roles. There's no such thing as information overload. Like the more information you have, the more the more the more points you have on the graph, like the better you can, the better you can approach it. Because not only is it either it's validating it or like you mentioned, it's invalidating it. And you can if you can catch it early enough, you can you don't have you don't have to sink with the ship.
Zain:And that kind of goes back to the initial. The other thing you said was, and maybe this is not what you meant, but kind of like that rapid prototyping, like, you know, Figma is a great, great tool. Right? You can create a literal clickable prototype that you can send to your customers and be like, Hey, what do you think? And it looks polished.
Zain:It looks great. And if something doesn't work out, it's just a couple of pixels. You just got to move things here and there, couple interactions versus you just coded for like 3 months and. Right. And then now it's like, oh, God, you know, we got we have another, you know, 3 months of work to do.
Alex:Yeah. Exactly. Well, I mean and and it doesn't even have to be Figma. Right? It can be something super simple like in the past.
Alex:So, I was helping a friend who has a patient pay company. Right? And it was just as simple as like, hey. Do you want her to do price transparency? And it's like, hey.
Alex:Let's just throw some mock screens together, either like in Bubble IO or it could even be in Word. Right? As long as people get an idea of, like, this is what the website could look like and this is what our patient shopping experience looks like, And you can go take that to patients and to providers and go, how does this resonate with you? Like, that's all you have to do. Right?
Alex:I mean, it's just it doesn't matter how you do it as long as you have something that you can run them through.
Zain:I
Alex:But I I do love Figma. It's, like, super easy to use.
Zain:Yeah. Figma is awesome. I think you even heard, like, people like cutting out paper, like even construction paper and like all the buttons are different and then they're like, they like literally just put it on front of them. They push the button and they literally just move, move the paper over to something else. It's rudimentary.
Zain:It might sound dumb. You might might look dumb when you're doing it, but it works because it's all about visualization. Because the one thing I'm sure you've you've experienced and I've experienced too, like somebody will tell you like, oh, we want this. But once you actually put it on a screen, when you're looking at screen real estate, all these things, all that plays into plays into it. And then maybe it's not the best solution and they want to change their mind.
Zain:Right.
Alex:Yeah. A 100%. Yeah. And I and I've seen kinda, like, what it can look like, and I'm not gonna name names just to just to be on the safe side. But, like, you know, I've seen products before where they've actually, like it was well intended, right, where they got all of the customer feedback, and they wanted to incorporate all those features.
Alex:But then they put it all in there, and then it's like, you know, you just wanna see what the patient's, you know, like, eligibility information is or whatever it is. And there it was just, like, the UI was so cluttered that it's like, I can't read anything in here just because you've tried to cram so much information trying to appease everybody, but now it's like you're just kinda confusing everyone, like, also, right? So, like, that's why you've gotta make sure you can put it in front of customers and, you know, talk to them, like, in you know, to to your point, 20 you know, or total of what we talked about, 25% maybe a stretch. But, like, I feel like in product, if you're not talking to at least 1 customer a week, you're doing it wrong. Right?
Alex:And I can think the, like, one customer a week should be, like, the bare bare minimum.
Zain:Yeah. And if you and then, know, people say, well, I well, I can't find if you can't find 1 customer a week, then maybe you're not building the right product or you're not building it the right way because you don't have Exactly. It. You don't have enough people excited about your product. Right.
Zain:I think because that goes back to product market fit, right? Like you can't Yes. Product market fit. You don't like discover. I mean, very few people discover product market fit, right?
Zain:Like, you know, you you come out of the woodwork and boom, it just it's It's very rare to have a company like that. Most of it is the product market fit is there. You just have to go and find it. And once you find it, the other thing about product market fit, and you please correct me if I'm wrong, you can't just be like, okay, well, this is our fit, and we're going to stay in this lane. No, it's a constantly evolving thing.
Zain:Right. Because now you've solved a problem. Great. Now there's another problem to solve. Another problem, another problem.
Zain:And, you know, maybe there's other players that come into it. They're undercutting you or whatever, and you just kind of have to keep evolving or you die.
Alex:Yeah. 100%. Yeah. I mean, to me, product is a living and breathing thing. Right?
Alex:It has to evolve. I mean, either you either evolve or you, you know, like, you lose the market. Right? Or, like, you you have to, like, make sure that's why, again, not to keep beating this point, but, like, that's why
Zain:it's so important to keep talking
Alex:to your customers. Right? Because you need to keep a pulse, because you can't just be like, hey. We're the market leader. Like, we've nailed it.
Alex:Like, we're good. Like, because at the moment you do that, that's when somebody else who is talking to kind of, like, your market and your customers, they're gonna it may not be immediate, but eventually, they're gonna push you out, right? Like, that's why you have to make sure you're, like, really keeping an ear and making sure that you maintain that product market fit, and then you're, you know, you're addressing your market the right way. You're constantly seeing it, you know, as it evolves, right? Are you, like, pricing things the right way?
Alex:Are you positioning your products the right way? Like, all of that has to continually evolve to make sure that you're addressing the needs of what your customers have.
Zain:Yeah. I mean, and these are the things that if you if you're like, oh, man, this sounds hard, then, you know, product might not be the right fit for you
Alex:because, like,
Zain:honestly, like honestly, I could talk about this all day. Like, literally, like, as you were talking, I'm like, I'm like getting super excited. I'm like, Yeah, man. Like, this is the stuff I love, like strategy, you know, finding the product market fit. Like, it's like a puzzle piece and it's very akin to health care.
Zain:You know, I tell people and this is not to like, you know, say like, oh, they're the same thing because, you know, they're not. But, you know, in health care, I'm trying to solve a problem. I'm trying to figure out a strategy. You know, our product market fit is the disease and the drug. Like, is it is it making sense?
Zain:Like, it's it's very similar to, like, the thought process I go to. Like, you know, you have to prioritize things throughout the day and, you know, and communicate things properly so your patients can understand what they're doing. That's literally the product. I mean, I tell people like product is probably 90% communication. You know, like if you can't communicate your vision, your mission, or even talk to your customers and ask the right things, you're going to fail.
Zain:It's just, it is not a possibility. If you're not a good communicator written, not just orally, also written, it's it's it's gonna it's a very, very tough job.
Alex:Yeah. So I totally agree with you. And then that's where, yeah, like, you've gotta make sure that I mean, like, product, you really are, like, the glue that kinda holds everybody together. Right? You've gotta make sure sales is aligned to you and engineering and everybody else.
Alex:Right? And the executive teams. That's why, like and honestly, like, I've always gone the reason I got so excited about product because I just realized I never actually fully answered your question. Like, I've always like, my goal, like, ever since college has been, like, someday I wanna be a founder. Right?
Alex:But I don't wanna, like, I feel like I don't have the luxury of, like, being able to jump in. Right? Because, like, I have a family. I have all that stuff, so I need to be smart about when that happens. So my goal is to make as big of an impact as I can anywhere I'm working, right, learn different roles.
Alex:That's why I'm excited that I got to pivot over to customer success, right, because I mean, it's just like in revenue cycle. I kinda hopped around into, like, customer service and these other areas, right, because the more of those jobs you do, the better you understand those things. And I feel like, you know, to be a good founder, I don't wanna be a micromanager. I wanna just make sure that I can, like, really be a strong coach and have the knowledge to help my team, and then also know when to get out of the way because that they're stronger than I am. Right?
Alex:So I can kind of, you know, hire, like, the right CPO or whoever it is to make sure that they can run that division. Right? And mentor, you know, and mentor me even. Right? Or even, like, know when to get out of the way when things, you know, like, clearly, you know, if you're not cut out for it, you know, no.
Alex:Like, you you have to know when to step step aside from, like, a scale standpoint and everything else. Sorry. Total tangent there.
Zain:No. No. No. No. There's there's not an intention.
Zain:I mean, my my next couple of questions are gonna be about customer success as well. But before we go to that, I mean, I I think what you mentioned is that's that's the kind of leader I think people want to work for. And, you know, it kind of shows, like, you know, as in your career, you've had high leadership positions. And I can see why, because, you know, you can build a strong team. You build a strong team by trusting them.
Zain:Right? You know, it sounds like you are building a team, but but with trust, like, hey, I'm putting you in the right positions. If you need me, I'm here, but I trust you that you can do the job. That's why I hired you. And I think that's really empowering, especially for like product teams where there's just so much going on.
Zain:Not one person can take care of it, but like if you have the right team involved in there, like, you know, yeah, the vision mission part. Yeah. You know, the the the VPs and things are like, yeah, they can answer those questions, but you don't want to be getting them into the nitty gritty because there's a lot more other things that they should be doing. So no. That's good.
Zain:That's great to hear. But I do wanna talk about customer success, your new role. Yeah. I think this is something that's overlooked by a lot of people. And there's actually for me, there's a very strong connection between customer success and product.
Zain:You know, I think it like customer success sandwiches product really well. And you gotta and you can disagree with me, but, I mean, what do you think about that?
Alex:Yeah. No. I totally agree with you. Because I mean, to me, it's you know, you're only as good at you know, I mean, your your customers are only gonna be as happy as not only as well as your product works, but as well as they're taken care of. Right?
Alex:And I think that's where customer success, it's really an enhancer. Right? Because I feel like a lot of people get so focused on, like, let's get these customers live and get them up. And, like, I've seen so many examples of even, like, bigger software companies. Right?
Alex:Or, like, even, like, service companies where they're you know, it's kinda like, hey. They were great right up until they got everything live. And then after that, everything fell off. Right? And I can't like, the stuff's falling apart.
Alex:I can't maintain anything. And so I think to me, that's where, like, I kinda take that personally. Right? I feel like you should really have, like, that dedicated and, like, passionate approach for your customers, like, all the way through, right? Like, at the beginning, identify the right, like, make sure that the problems that they're experiencing are aligned well to your product.
Alex:Right? And then make sure that your products are solving the right issues for them. And then afterwards, make sure that you're, like, listening to them. Right? Because to the living and breathing point, customer success, I think, can be, like, the conduit into product of, like, hey.
Alex:We have these customers that have been live for a year. Here are the additional things they would like to see. Right? We're seeing this trend across all of our customers. So I I really do feel like it's important to, you know, like, really keep that ear to the ground.
Alex:And to your point, it is like it's like the bread on the sandwich. Right? You've gotta you know, it's it's not the same without it. I mean, unless you like what it's for apps. I don't know.
Zain:Yeah. No. I think customer success is kind of if when you have a good customer success team, they're kind of, it's kind of like a secret weapon because I don't think a lot of companies get it right. Because again, you know, they sign the contract, okay, we have them for a year or whatever. Or if you're out, you know, or you'll deal with the churn.
Zain:You've already figured out, okay, this is our customer acquisition. But I think it's I think if you have a good onboarding experience or like a good experience in terms of if there's a problem or even before you even sell the product, you know, customer success can come in that way too. And, you know, really kind of identifying and helping the product team really figure out what the customers are looking for. I mean, there's just so much a customer success team can do and if they're properly utilized.
Alex:100%.
Zain:So for you, you know, as you're building this customer, you know, customer success team, like what are what is your in in a perfect world, what is a good customer success team look like?
Alex:Yeah. So I mean, so to me, it's, you know, like, seamless communication with the customers. Right? Like, it it should be very easy for them to submit it, submit an issue to us. But we understand what's happening with it.
Alex:Right? Like, what's the like, where is it in the life cycle? Who has the ball, like, so to speak? Right? Like, when is it going to be resolved?
Alex:Making sure that you're you know, they don't feel like they're just on an island. Right? Because, you know, now it's like, oh, we're in the recurring revenue phase. We can just let them sit. That should never be the goal.
Alex:The goal should always be, let's keep customers excited and engaged and make sure that they're, you know, that they're really bought in. And if they're not, we need to figure out why. And, like, we should really be having discussions with them to make sure that they're happy and all those things. I also think that as a, you know, like, health care company, it's really important to show the value demonstrate the value that you're providing to your customers. Right?
Alex:Because, obviously, their budgets are tight. Right? Everything, like, value is kind of the name of the game. And so, like, you really have to be able to, like, demonstrate that you're solving their problems and you're driving the right value for them and then be able to do that on a consistent basis. And I feel like, you know, I I've seen some companies do that really well.
Alex:Like, I feel like Experian, back when I worked with them, was really good at that back in the day. Other ones, not so much. Right? Like, but I really like the companies that, like, took the extra time to go, like, hey. We've been looking at your claims.
Alex:Here's the impact we have. Here's how, like, we're really solving problems for you. Those are the ones, you know, putting trying to put myself back in the shoes of a health system, you know, leader. Like, that's what you really wanna heat like, you wanna you wanna see and make sure that the data is accurate. Right?
Alex:And, like, you're really demonstrating, like, the the impact that you're making.
Zain:Yeah. No. I mean, I think you bring over a good point. It's one thing. Sometimes even when you sell a solution to somebody, they don't really understand what you're selling them.
Zain:Like, they've not you mean, maybe like the person that did the deal sold it, but like having that constant communication be like, hey, this month, you know, let's just we saved you this much or we helped you with this many readmissions. Is there any way we can do better or like, is this good enough? Like, I think that those touch points are really valuable. And it also shows companies that you care. Right?
Zain:I think nowadays we've gotten into this mode of, chatbots and whatever, and that that human touch, I think people are starting to revert back to it. Right? They really want to get a human on the phone and all that stuff. Like, and I think that's where customer success can really come in and just like be there when they, when you're needed. And sometimes, you know, you can reach out to them and you can also reach out to them and be like, Hey, how are we doing?
Zain:Right. Because that proactive reaching out kind of like what you mentioned, no one really does that. And if you're a company that's doing that, yes, it's hard work. No one's saying that right. Everyone's busy.
Zain:But if you're able to do that, it's much easier to retain it. It's much cheaper. I shouldn't even say easier. It's much cheaper to retain a customer than to to sign on a new customer. So I think the, you know, so that math math, just you do that math in your head, your customer acquisition costs versus retention costs.
Zain:And that should easily justify, those phone calls and hiring that extra customer success person.
Alex:100%. Yeah. And then, like, into to that point, honestly, I've been other places, right, where, like, customer success seems to be kinda, like, one of the
Zain:first areas to get cut. That's similar to, like, how, for some reason, IT seems to be,
Alex:like, one of the first budget lines, like, in health care to get cut. Right? Even though, like, everything is tech operated. I mean, it's just, like, you you have to, like it's diminishing returns at some point. Right?
Alex:Like, you, you know, you you really need to make sure that you're focused on your customers and keeping them happy because they're only happy because you're maintaining and talking and having those open conversations, and you're asking them how they're doing. You're not waiting for them to come to you. Right? You need you have to, to your point, be proactive and measure success and, you know, be transparent and, you know, just, like, stay in constant contact with them.
Zain:Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I think with product, there's easy metrics to not shouldn't say easy, but they're, you know, they're pretty common metrics that, you know, how much, you know, what what have you delivered and how often do you deliver? And then also like, you know, click through rates, all these things, you know, for product, right? Like the actual product. So so what are some, what are some key metrics for a customer success team?
Zain:So if you're let's say if somebody is building a customer success team, you've really like fired them up. Like, yeah, I'm going to build it. Like, what are some key metrics that you're looking at for a team for a customer success success team, please?
Alex:Yeah. No. It's all good. No. I I love that question.
Alex:So, I mean so the the, like, candidly, like, the things I'm looking at. Right? So there are a few things. Every customer you sign has an SLA. Right?
Alex:So, like, how good of a job are you doing at adhering to those SLAs? You should be monitoring that, and you should be, like, striving to hit those, you know, like, within the thresholds that are set. So, like, so right now, like, the dashboards I have set up, right, it's like SLA adherence. So how how close are we to our targets on the on those pieces? Also, you know, like, basically return, like, you know, even just, you know, ticket resolution rate and, like, satisfaction rate and net promoter score, like, all of those things kinda tie together, but, like, really what it comes down to for me is making sure that you're getting to customers' issues timely, and you're addressing them, like, in the best possible way.
Alex:Right? And then so, like, whether that means that you created a knowledge article so they could do it self-service. Right? Or it's a super easy tier 1 issue. Right?
Alex:Like, where you could, like, really just you know, it's a password reset or whatever it is, but just making sure that you're punctual and you're setting you're meeting the commitments that you're setting out for those customers. Right? So, like, I really think it's important to just understand, like, how are your tickets aging? How are you, you know, resolving problems for your customers? Are you doing it effectively?
Alex:Because you may be closing your tickets on time, but are you actually fixing the issue for them? Right? Like, I've I've worked in customer's, service before at a hospital system. Right? I can't tell you how many calls I used to get from, like, when somebody else has called, like, 2 of my other teammates.
Alex:And then I would be the one that actually solved it. But they're like, well, no. I took the call, and I got the credit for it. Right? But it's like, did you actually solve their problem?
Alex:Like, that that's really what you, you know, you have to measure and, like, make sure that their, like, like, resolution rate is solid and, like, you're you're getting thumbs up from customers. Like, yes. This is what we're looking for. Like or if you're not getting that because it's, you know, product's working as designed or whatever, what are you doing with that feedback, and how are you communicating that back to your customers? Right?
Alex:Like, I think all of that has to be measured and, you know, be real way relate to product because maybe it's working as designed, but, you know, if you have 50 customers and 40 of them are telling you that this feature isn't, like, they'll prefer it was working this way, I would say that that's probably a good reason to go talk to them and go, hey, maybe we should put this on our roadmap and change this up a little bit.
Zain:Yeah. And that right there is the key, like that highway between product and customer success. Because let's say your product team is not able to talk to customers.
Alex:Right?
Zain:Guess what? You have a team that's literally talking to customers all the time. And you know, if you have a good relationship with each other, which you should, the customer success team and the product team should be walking in lockstep, in my opinion. That's invaluable information. I mean, sorry, not invaluable.
Zain:It's valuable information because like, they're literally telling you what the customer is doing, seeing, wanting. Right. And, you know, they can relay that to you and you can take do with it what you will. But I mean, and then also, you know, I've I've had customer success people bring in product people on the calls. Right?
Zain:Like in, you know, that way you can solve everything together. I mean, there's such a great synergy with customer success. And I'm it really bums me out that more companies don't have a more robust customer success team.
Alex:Yeah. I agree with you. I mean, I definitely think it's, you know, it's the thing that really makes can make or break you. Right? And I mean, I I know some of that is, like, really, you know, maybe it's positioning and you're like, you know, you're trying to, you know, maybe you make it harder to reach your team because you think it's gonna cause less churn, right, and it's just like I mean, I know there are a bunch of different tactics out there.
Alex:To me, like, I just like and maybe I'm naive in this way, but I I like to operate in the, you know, treat people the way you wanna be treated. Right? So, you know, I have a certain level of expectations of, like, ideally, like, like, what what wows me as a customer. Right? So I try to put like, kinda keep that mentality with everything I do to make sure that we have that same level of, like, wow and support for our customers to make sure that they stick around, you know, with us, not only for our product, but because we take great care of them.
Zain:Yeah. And no. And I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, like I said, you know, I think we're we're going into this careening into this world where you just will never get to talk to a person. Right.
Zain:And, it's really wild to me. I was listening to somebody, and they were talking about how just being able to reach somebody quickly was like mind boggling to them because they were able to reach a person quickly. They didn't have to go through this massive phone tree. And because I think that's the one thing that I think will I hope gets turned around, especially with customers and customer success type stuff is just like you said, they're they're making their teams harder and harder to get to.
Alex:Right.
Zain:Whether it be they don't a lot of it is because they just don't have the budget to get the people or they don't want to have that budget. They don't want to hire these people there. But, you know, you as a customer, like you said, when you what is the most frustrating thing when you have a problem, when you go on their website and you cannot find the contact us thing? Like for have you seen this new trend where the contact us link is now hidden somewhere and you literally have
Alex:to do buried. Yep.
Zain:Yeah. And you have to do a control f. And it's usually like in the very bottom with like the link diarrhea. And, and even when you go to contact us, it's like not giving the phone number. You have to kind of dig a little bit deeper.
Zain:That is a very crappy experience. And I think if you're running a company, you should not be giving that experience to your customers because I'm sure you would also be really pissed off with that experience.
Alex:That's that's exactly it. Yeah. And then, like and that's not the behavior you wanna perpetuate too because, like, I think, like, where I have an issue with, like, you know, some of the decisions that get made is, like, when people are like, well, everyone else is doing it, so I'm just gonna do that same way. But, like, I don't know. I I feel like any of this goes for product or whatever you're doing.
Alex:I don't think you should be looking at, like, the plate of your, you know, like, what your competitor is doing, and, like, oh, like, what what are they eating or what are they doing. Right? Then trying to copy them, you should be doing everything possible to make sure you're solving the right problems. Then you're talking to your customer. You're not looking at your competitors.
Alex:You're looking I mean, I'm I'm not saying you don't keep an eye on them. You should always, like, keep, you know, pulse on what's going on, but you don't fixate on them. You you obsess and fixate on your customers and making sure that you're taking care of them, solving issues for them because I really believe that's what's gonna get you that extra level. Right? And maybe it'll be more expensive in the beginning.
Alex:Maybe you need to have a bigger team. But I feel like in the long run, you know, that's what really yields, like, the market advantage that you can gain, and it's I I really, you know, I really believe in that.
Zain:Yeah. I mean, look look at some of the there's some of the some big brands out there like Volvo. Right? Right. Volvo is synonymous with safety, right?
Zain:I mean, they're still pretty safe, but I mean, like you can, if you can create like what you're synonymous for, like really good for like that will, that will go with you. I mean, there's I mean, there's a lot of companies out there that have great customer service. Right. They have, you know, legacy companies. Right.
Zain:And people still stick with them because they're like, hey, they're going to take care of us. Yeah, we're paying we're paying a little bit extra. And that's the other thing I think people don't understand is you can charge for this. It's not like you're giving it away for free. People will pay for a premium service.
Zain:People will pay a premium for a premium service. And yeah, and it all depends on what your customer is like, you know, do you want 10 big customers or do you want a 100 small customers? Right. And if you're charging a premium, 10 big customers are a little bit easier to deal with than a 100 small customers. And I think that's another thing that companies need to realize is you don't have to get every person in the market.
Zain:Right? Like the evolution, it's it's not possible. It just isn't. Your TAM is not what you're, you know, like, you see all these things like, oh, our TAM is this and we're gonna get this. It's like, no, you're gonna get a fraction and a fraction of fraction of that.
Alex:That's exactly it. Yep. So Correct. Yeah.
Zain:Go ahead. No. Go ahead.
Alex:No. I was gonna say, yeah. So, like, on that TAM point, I get and that that's that's the funny thing. Right? Because I've done a lot of those exercises in the past, and it sort of cracks me up when people said, like, outrageous numbers, like, oh, we're kinda, like, it's gonna be a $1,000,000,000,000 of impact.
Alex:Right? And it's like, guys, that's maybe the size of the entire market. Like, right now, you have, you know, like, your experience in Waystar's in this space. Who have, like, 7 to 8% of that market. Right?
Alex:Or Optum has, like, you know, 10 or 12%. I mean, your best case scenario is you're gonna be able to, like, like, be at the level of those guys, like, maybe surpass them slightly, but, I mean, like, to blow them out of the water, you would have to have, like, something absolutely mind blowing that, like, transforms the entire industry and has probably, you know, like, the government backing and everything to go with it. Like, it's almost like how Epic got their start, right? Like, they were at the right place at the right time, you know, like, the right registration came out and it was just like, you know, a kick start for them, and they were able to, like, surpass their, you know, and basically take all the market that their competitors had. But again, it's not, you know, an absurd amount of market, right, they're basically taking they're still harvesting what's out there.
Alex:So you really have to be, like, smart in how you calculate, you know, your actual addressable market.
Zain:Yeah. I mean, that picks I
Alex:mean market and everything else.
Zain:Yeah. I forgot what the percentage of Epic is. I think they're what, like 30 ish percent, 30 something percent of the market in EMRs. But I mean, even if they're huge, they're still not 100%. Right.
Zain:I mean, there's like, there's like, if that's the one thing that I think a lot of people like coming in and I want people to realize is like, yeah, it's great to know your time and all that stuff. Like, great, great to know, but be realistic with your numbers. Yeah. That's the total market. But then there's a niche in that market and another niche and another niche and another niche.
Zain:And that's what your actual a 100% of your customers are. And then from that a 100% of your, that small niche, you're going to maybe get a little bit of that. Right. You know, you can we can look at the adoption curve and all that stuff and you can use that as as a thing. But, it's just yeah, it just baffles me when people like throw out these numbers and you're just like, and but people people fall for it.
Zain:And I shouldn't say fall for it. It impresses people and, you know, you get investors who invest in. And so it's like almost perpetuating this behavior, right? Kind of going at your initial point, like, well, everyone else is doing it, so why not why don't I do it? Right?
Zain:Yeah. Yeah. I'll just just do that. Yeah.
Alex:It's an easy way to to raise capital, right, and deal with those things, which, mean, you know and, like, I I feel like even with that, it's changed. Right? And I feel like VCs are a lot more sensitive to a lot of those things now, right, just because of, like, the financial situation. So it's not as easy. So, like, you really do need to be smarter with, you know, positioning yourself and, like, how you're actually solving the challenges.
Alex:And then to your point, you know, the other, like, the other part of the TAM, like, maybe even if you, like, say, hypothetically, you could get to, like, 80% of it or a 100% of it. It likely means that you're investing so much money to, like, peanut butter spread all the stuff that has to happen for you to, like, address every edge case and everything else has to go in to that. Right? That, like, the margins aren't gonna make sense, and I've worked at companies before that have tried to do that. Right?
Alex:And it's it's it's not gonna work for you.
Zain:Yeah. Amazon's a really interesting example of that where they don't their money making is AWS. Right? Like their server thing. They lose money on their storefront.
Zain:And because they're undercutting everything, they just have more. They just have deeper pockets than everyone else. And that's what they're doing. But like now the ones that are remaining, like Walmart, Target, like the big legacy stores that were able to switch and go, you know, the retail stores that were able to go online, like Amazon is still trying to get rid of them, but it's much harder for them. So like Amazon is one of the largest companies, like top three companies in the world, and they don't even have a 100% of the the market.
Zain:Like
Alex:That that's, like, the yeah. Exactly.
Zain:And they're losing Yeah. No. Yeah. Go ahead. No.
Zain:No. I'm saying, and they're losing money on every transaction you make on Amazon dotcom.
Alex:Right. Yeah. And it's yeah. So, like, the margins aren't there. Right?
Alex:So, like, maybe they even even if they have, you know, a big amount of the market, but, you know, at the end of the day, if you're not actually, you know, driving value and, you know, like, it just you know, you're not gonna be able to succeed as a company unless you have other sources of revenue. Right? And it's okay to have loss leaders. Like, I totally think that's the that's the way to go because I you just have to have that, you know, in some cases. Unless, you know, like, I feel like maybe they're very rare situations where that's not the case.
Alex:So, like, right, like, maybe Salesforce is a good example of that because the licenses are just, like, crazy expensive no matter what you do, except for maybe if you're a nonprofit. But, like, everybody seems to, like, just get the value that they, you know, that they pay for.
Zain:Yeah. Loss leader is actually a interesting topic. Do you kinda wanna describe or do you wanna kinda say what describe what a loss leader is?
Alex:Yeah. So so to me, it's basically, like, you know, what's a bread and butter product that you maybe have to have in order to, like like, really penetrate the market you're trying to go into. Right? And maybe it's already well saturated, so maybe for you, it doesn't make sense. Maybe you're gonna have to buy the data from somebody else.
Alex:Or if you're gonna build it yourself, right, you're gonna be upside down on it, and you're not gonna be profitable. But if it gets you in the door and gets your high revenue and high margin product, you know, and, like, if that's the thing that helps, like, tip people over, it's worth it to have, like, that lower performing product so that you can get the rest of your platform utilized and, you know, like, in front of customers and in front of patients. Right? And, like, really start, you know, generating, you know, driving impact that way.
Zain:Yeah. And example that I I love, it's a company that I find really fascinating is Costco, where I mean, their loss leader is rotisserie chicken and kind of their food court. Right? Because I forgot.
Alex:Like the hot dogs. Yeah. They're still like an hour 25 or whatever.
Zain:Yeah. There's a really funny story where, like, it was on a conference and like on a on a call, like an earnings call. And, like, the board was like, hey, we need to up the prices of hot dogs. And, like, the CEO was like, there's no effing way I'm paying more than adult, whatever it was. He's like, we are not changing that.
Zain:And same thing with her. But like that kind of what you say, right? It brings people in the door. They know for a fact that that rotisserie chicken is always going to be whatever that price is. A hot dog is always gonna be a dollar 25.
Zain:And guess what? People literally go there smiling ear to ear while they're spending 100 and 100 of dollars on stuff that they may or may not even want. Ask me how I know this. I've literally walked to Costco with no intention to buy anything, and I leave with like $300 worth of stuff. And it's just like, it doesn't make sense to me.
Zain:But, you know, it's they bring you in with, you know, value propositions and then they, you know, they sell you on their stuff because now they've you've gotten their trust. Right. That's one thing. But like sometimes with loss leaders too, is like, it's just maybe building some trust with them. You know, you're gonna take a bath on it, but if you can get them through the door, you're building that trust and you're building a good environment for the customer, kind of going back to customer success.
Zain:Right? Now you've got them in the door. Now customer success can kind of help it flourish, and our product team can help them help build a better product. And now you can kind of guide them towards your higher revenue things. Because once you make people feel good, they're willing to give you money.
Zain:Right?
Alex:Exactly.
Zain:And I think that's something that people really overlook with kind of this whole ecosystem of product and customer success or whatever is you need to make the customer feel like they're wanted and they're they feel good and they're being heard because then people are willing to open up the checkbook. People always complain like, Oh, man, they're never going to pay this or never going to pay that. Well, they will pay it if they feel like that you're giving them that value. Usually, you have to give them a little bit more than that value. Right.
Zain:But if they feel like they're getting the value, they will pay you. And especially in health care, like we're dealing with astronomical numbers. Right? People are trying to cut costs. And if you can save them, you know, they'll they'll pay you.
Zain:But it's just a matter of, like, what are you doing to make them pay you?
Alex:Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's, like, honestly, where, you know, like, a lot of people get it wrong. Right? Like, they're so quick to just chase the, like, revenue or, like, just the cash Or, like, what can I get hospital assistants to pay me?
Alex:And not necessarily, like, what am I doing to alleviate their problems? How am I, like, driving value to them for them? Right? And then, like and then once you find, like, the, you know, the true solutions to those problems, then, like, the price almost becomes irrelevant because they, like, they're they're gonna want it and they need it. Then if you can demonstrate that you have a return on investment for them, like, it's a no brainer.
Alex:They're gonna buy it from you. Right? But if you're, like, hyper focused on, like, what do I do just to, like, make $10,000,000 from these guys? Right? Like, that's not I feel like that's that's not the way to go.
Zain:Yeah. I mean I mean, like, there's so much loss in in hospitals, like, just look at billing, right? Like, how many, how many unpaid bills there are? If you can, like, maybe it's not even like, you need to do 100% of it. Like, even if you can increase that, you know, capture rate in billing by like 5, 10%, you're looking at 100 of 1,000 of dollars, like a month.
Zain:Right. Which leads to, you know, a lot of money. So 10% of that or 20% of that, there'd be more than willing to pay you you know, that much money. If you're, if you're showing them, Hey, we can bring this money back to you or whatever. And that's just a simple example.
Zain:I mean, you worked in revenue cycle, you probably, you probably say it more eloquently than I did, but, I mean, but those are the kinds of things like you said, we're not like, Oh yeah, well you charge us. We're we're gonna, we're gonna, we need $10,000,000 so we need to charge everyone this much money. And then you kind of forget of what the actual problem you're solving. The only problem you're solving at that point is your bank account and you're not resolving the customer's problem.
Alex:Yeah. That's exactly it. Yep.
Zain:But, but no, I mean, I mean, I can literally talk to you for hours. I think the first time you might have been saying that we might have to do this again, but, you know, for those who, wanna reach out to you, what's the best way of doing that?
Alex:So, I mean, I I'd say probably, like, LinkedIn is probably the best way to go. Yeah. I'm, you know, always happy to connect, happy to chat. Like, I'm, you know, usually pretty open book. I feel like health care is kind of like a you know, I I have a friend that always says, you know, like, lifting, you know, like, rising tide with all ships, and, like, I really do feel like that's how health care should be.
Alex:Like, we should be at like, so I'm always down to, you know, like, just give advice or do whatever and just kinda, you know, help people out because at the end of the day, it makes it better for all of us.
Zain:200%. I could not agree more. So I have one last question for you. And that is, you know, you had an you have you have some amazing experience, you know, a lot of varied experience, you know, where you are now, you know, what you know now, what advice would you given yourself? You know, that that that kid that was in food services in that hospital system, like, what advice would you have given him, of with all the knowledge that you know now?
Alex:Yeah. So, I mean, 1st so, like, honestly, it's I've always had a similar mentality. And so I would just say, like, stick to, like, what your vision is. Like, even back then, I was like, alright. I'm like, I I know I wanna be in leadership.
Alex:I wanna make a big difference. Right? So get the education, get the experience. Right? Do all those things.
Alex:But since the beginning, I've always like, every job I've had, I've tried to, like, just focus on, like, the best patient experience. Like, when I was in food service and I was running food trays, my goal was to be the fastest food, like, tray runner. So like, if somebody is saying that their food's gonna take an hour, if I can get it to them in 15 minutes, right, and it's hot, and it's not cold, and it's like, that person's miserable in their inpatient bed, but I was able to give them a warm meal, but I can put a smile on their face, like, I feel like I've won, right? And I and so the thing to me is always just, like, stick to who you are. Right?
Alex:Like, serve like, you we're there to serve others. Make sure that you always have, like, that, you know, that patient at the center of everything that you're doing, especially if you're working in healthcare. Right? And then just make sure that you're rounding out your, you know, your knowledge as much as possible. Right?
Alex:So don't just, like, focus on one thing and don't get fixated on, like, no. I feel like this is the right way to do things. Like, go try different areas, like, within health care, within different industries. Right? Because at the end of the day, all of that experience will kinda tie itself together and, like, really help get you to where you need to be.
Alex:And that's honestly also the reason why I try to hire, like, very diverse teams from skill set and everything else because I don't wanna hire a bunch of clones. Right? I want a group that's really gonna balance each other out and be like a strong sports team where they're gonna, like, have solid chemistry, and they're gonna solve problems together, not because we have, like, 1 superstar that's, like, pulling the entire team up. Right? Like, I want it to be a team effort.
Zain:Yeah. And not not everyone can be LeBron James, Michael Jordan, or the quarterback of the team because, like, if you have too many of those, then you're kinda wasting everyone else's talent. Right? Like, you need
Alex:you need a run
Zain:back, you need a point card, whatever, like you need you need something well rounded. But that's great to hear. And as somebody who has spent recent time in the hospital, getting that food really quickly is actually really nice. So It is. But, I wanna thank you so much, Alex, for your time.
Zain:And, you know, keep doing what you're doing. It's amazing to talk to people like you, and it's I'm glad that people like you are in, health tech and health care in general. So, thank you very much, and, yeah, I hope you have a great day.
Alex:Yeah. You too. I really appreciate it.
Zain:Thank you for listening. You can subscribe to the podcast from any of your favorite podcasting apps. If you enjoyed what you listen to, please consider giving a 5 star rating and review. This really helps others find the podcast. Thank you again for all the support, and I hope you have a great day.
